[FF2] Dec 2021 Balancing Suggestions

[Pyrelancer]

Here's a Google Doc with 15 suggestions for the FF2 server. I have more (50+ total) but have decided it's better for discussion if split into smaller pieces. This first round of suggestions will play it safe and focus on positive rebalances, minor buffs and bug fixes. At a later date, I may suggest more rebalances / nerfs for overpowered items.

There will also be a thread in the #freak-fortress channel on Discord (shortly after posting this) for active discussion and users who do not have forum accounts.

(Archived) FF2 Suggestions Doc 1st Round

FF2 Suggestions Document 1st Round (15 suggestions) Created Dec 18 2021 Edited Dec 21 2021 # of words: 1368 # of pages: 5 Recent Changes Adjusted value for Jacket's fire rate penalty (found out bosses lost their +10% fire rate). Increased value for Werewolf's reload cost (found out it only costs...

docs.google.com

TL;DRs (taken from the document):
Color Code: Green - Buffs. Blue - Bugs. Purple - Rebalances. Red - Nerfs. Gray - Other.

● Goomba Stomps: New scaling. Increase damage floor to 900.​

● Shields: Disable shields blocking stomps and breaking.​

● Super Jumps: Revert super jump cooldown increases.​

● Skeleton King: Damage buffs for his reload (Hellfire).​

● Jacket: Base damage increase. Bleed on Hit.​

● Werewolf of London: Melee buff, Lunge nerf.​

● Sandman: Replacement for health penalty.​

● Cow Mangler: Crit/minicrit damage rework.​

● Banners: Banner charge rates are bugged.​

● Back Scratcher: Add missing bonus damage.​

● Ambassador: Restore half of missing headshot damage.​

● Demoman's Shields: General buffs and Splendid Screen tweaks.​

● Demoman's Boots: Bonus charge damage for true Demoknights.​

● Half-Zatoichi: Nerfs + Disable health on hit reduction while bloody.​

● Jag: Add missing bonus swing speed.​

Criticisms of the document's format would also be helpful. (I'm aware it's a bit colorful.)
(I'd have posted this in the Suggestions subforum, but access seems to be restricted.)

 

[Yuuki795]

I would not add increased damage and bleed to jacket. He already can 2 hit pretty fast cause he has scout swing speed

 

[Pyrelancer]

I would not add increased damage and bleed to jacket. He already can 2 hit pretty fast cause he has scout swing speed

Only classes with 285hp. Classes with 300hp can regen between swings and will take a third hit to kill. We also need to consider healing and overhealing, which allows all classes to take 4 hits (6+ for Heavy). Each hit is an opportunity to surf knockback and run away.

Jacket lacks abilities or power when compared to anyone else. 150 base damage, rage is only Über + Haste + weak pistol.
With this change he'd swing in 0.6s. That's only 25% (-0.2s) faster than others (0.8s) who deal more or can backstab.*

Edit: If it proves too strong the penalty could be increased, but anything higher than -35% would begin to hurt Jacket.
*Edit 2: Assumed bosses still had +10% swing speed (as they used to). Numbers here have been corrected.

 

[Yuuki795]

Only classes with 285hp. Classes with 300hp can regen between swings and will take a third hit to kill. We also need to consider healing and overhealing, which allows all classes to take 4 hits (6+ for Heavy). Each hit is an opportunity to surf knockback and run away.

Jacket lacks abilities or power when compared to anyone else. 150 base damage, rage is only Über + Haste + weak pistol.
With this change he'd swing in 0.59s. That's only 18% (-0.13s) faster than others (0.72s) who deal more or can backstab.

Edit: If it proves too strong the penalty could be increased, but anything higher than -50% would begin to hurt Jacket.

I'd increase pistol damage and swing speed a little no big changes like that. Bleed is seriously annoying and one class already has that. As for classes surfing away we could just apply less push force on hit

 

[Yuuki795]

Also please remove slow on hit from werewolf

 

[Pyrelancer]

I'd increase pistol damage and swing speed a little no big changes like that. Bleed is seriously annoying and one class already has that. As for classes surfing away we could just apply less push force on hit

Adding swing speed would still leave his melee under the 2-hit threshold for most classes. Combined with his Haste it could also cause problems with hit registration.

I suggest added bleed to make up for his inabilities and still low damage. Like on Werewolf, it'd slow down health regen but be short, non-lethal and recoverable.

That said, I do agree Jacket's Pistol could use more damage. Red Team could also maybe use some more push force resistance.

 

[Zinc]

Here's a Google Doc with 15 suggestions for the FF2 server. I have more (50+ total) but have decided it's better for discussion if split into smaller pieces. This first round of suggestions will play it safe and focus on positive rebalances, minor buffs and bug fixes. At a later date, I may suggest more rebalances / nerfs for overpowered items.

There will also be a thread in the #freak-fortress channel on Discord (shortly after posting this) for active discussion and users who do not have forum accounts.

(Archived) FF2 Suggestions Doc 1st Round

FF2 Suggestions Document 1st Round (15 suggestions) Created Dec 18 2021 Edited Dec 21 2021 # of words: 1368 # of pages: 5 Recent Changes Adjusted value for Jacket's fire rate penalty (found out bosses lost their +10% fire rate). Increased value for Werewolf's reload cost (found out it only costs...

docs.google.com

TL;DRs (taken from the document):
Color Code: Green - Buffs. Blue - Bugs. Purple - Rebalances. Red - Nerfs. Gray - Other.

● Goomba Stomps: New scaling. Increase damage floor to 900.​

● Shields: Disable shields blocking stomps and breaking.​

● Super Jumps: Revert super jump cooldown increases.​

● Skeleton King: Damage buffs for his reload (Hellfire).​

● Jacket: Base damage increase. Bleed on Hit.​

● Werewolf of London: Melee buff, Lunge nerf.​

● Sandman: Replacement for health penalty.​

● Cow Mangler: Crit/minicrit damage rework.​

● Banners: Banner charge rates are bugged.​

● Back Scratcher: Add missing bonus damage.​

● Ambassador: Restore half of missing headshot damage.​

● Demoman's Shields: General buffs and Splendid Screen tweaks.​

● Demoman's Boots: Bonus charge damage for true Demoknights.​

● Half-Zatoichi: Nerfs + Disable health on hit reduction while bloody.​

● Jag: Add missing bonus swing speed.​

Criticisms of the document's format would also be helpful. (I'm aware it's a bit colorful.)
(I'd have posted this in the Suggestions subforum, but access seems to be restricted.)

Kinda old thread,
I would only nerf werewolf's lunge cost, not the cooldown.
Now it costs a lot of rage anyways, so it isn't spammable.
Good players would wreck regardless and new players would just burn all their meter and not even rage.

 

[Zinc]

Kinda old thread,
I would only nerf werewolf's lunge cost, not the cooldown.
Now it costs a lot of rage anyways, so it isn't spammable.
Good players would wreck regardless and new players would just burn all their meter and not even rage.

The nerf's already happened so i'm proposing a slight nerf to charge time instead of the 25s

 

[Pyrelancer]

I would only nerf werewolf's lunge cost, not the cooldown.
Now it costs a lot of rage anyways, so it isn't spammable.
Good players would wreck regardless and new players would just burn all their meter and not even rage.

The nerf's already happened so i'm proposing a slight nerf to charge time instead of the 25s

I suggested nerfing its cost and cooldown not just for spam, but so it couldn't be combined with super jump as often.
The increased cooldown also keeps players from overusing the ability and burning through all of their rage.

In hindsight, I can see how 25s is a bit too long, but I think 10s is way too short.
I'm working on a second document right now, so I'll take another look at it.

 

[Zinc]

I suggested nerfing its cost and cooldown not just for spam, but so it couldn't be combined with super jump as often.
The increased cooldown also keeps players from overusing the ability and burning through all of their rage.

In hindsight, I can see how 25s is a bit too long, but I think 10s is way too short.
I'm working on a second document right now, so I'll take another look at it.

I can get where you're coming from about how
> having an increased cooldown stops people from burning through the rage resource quickly
but that's really an artificial limit to a problem that doesn't exist with a high rage cost
The rage cost already acts like a limit, since , you know, it costs 20%.

Let me ask you a take on design paradigm, who even plays werewolf of london anyways?
And do these CD balance changes aimed to make the game more fun or more for the sake of balance

Having long cooldowns for abilities make them feel crappy to use, especially when they use rage, which you can build 300% in like 8s if like 4 phlog pyros are blasting you down

 

[Pyrelancer]

I can get where you're coming from about how
> having an increased cooldown stops people from burning through the rage resource quickly
but that's really an artificial limit to a problem that doesn't exist with a high rage cost
The rage cost already acts like a limit, since , you know, it costs 20%.

I disagree, I think the increased cooldown serves a purpose. Rage limits the times an ability can be used, cooldowns limit when and where.
Werewolf could still spam Lunge if the cooldown had not gone up, because he gains rage fast. (I'm curious what his ragedamage is now.)

Lunge is versatile and a strong mobility tool. Its previous 10% cost and 10s cooldown weren't impactful.

Let me ask you a take on design paradigm, who even plays werewolf of london anyways?
And do these CD balance changes aimed to make the game more fun or more for the sake of balance

Having long cooldowns for abilities make them feel crappy to use, especially when they use rage, which you can build 300% in like 8s if like 4 phlog pyros are blasting you down

Didn't know about design paradigms until today, so I'm in the dark here. That said, not sure. My bold assumption is most (new players) will get Werewolf by random chance, and there are a few veterans who play them. Also, the suggestions for Werewolf were focused on balance.

I've been playing as him to see how he feels. I want to finish more rounds first.
Considering a lower cooldown for Lunge, which I'll include in the 2nd Round.

I'm exhausted, if I missed or misunderstood something, pardon. lmk.

 

[Zinc]

I disagree, I think the increased cooldown serves a purpose. Rage limits the times an ability can be used, cooldowns limit when and where.
Werewolf could still spam Lunge if the cooldown had not gone up, because he gains rage fast. (I'm curious what his ragedamage is now.)

Lunge is versatile and a strong mobility tool. Its previous 10% cost and 10s cooldown weren't impactful.


Didn't know about design paradigms until today, so I'm in the dark here. That said, not sure. My bold assumption is most (new players) will get Werewolf by random chance, and there are a few veterans who play them. Also, the suggestions for Werewolf were focused on balance.

I've been playing as him to see how he feels. I want to finish more rounds first.
Considering a lower cooldown for Lunge, which I'll include in the 2nd Round.

I'm exhausted, if I missed or misunderstood something, pardon. lmk.

25s Cooldown is definitely way too high, werewolf honestly feels bland and neutered to play.

> Didn't know about design paradigms until today,

Eh, it's just a fancy term for having goals in creating/changing stuff

Example, Buffs are more fun than nerfs,
_________ ability is why __________ character is fun/unique enough to differentiate
Am I changing a character for the sake of making a change/removing a thing, or are they notably problematic to play against compared to the rest of the roster?

I've played a lot of FF2 and Your changes have good intent,
but you need to relax specifically on these extremely long cooldowns in a fast paced mode
And it is clear that you've experienced with ff2 and are passionate so make sure to keep sharing and testing your ideas!

 

[Blanc_NextWhite]

I wish the Bison projectiles could get a speed boost, maybe more ticks per second too for faster speed.

 

[Pyrelancer]

I wish the Bison projectiles could get a speed boost, maybe more ticks per second too for faster speed.

AFAIK Yuki would need TFAttributeSupport for projectile speed to work on the Righteous Bison.
Depends on a fork of TF2Attributes (original) and DHooks (should be included with SM).

Would also allow modifying the projectile speed of the Pompson & Syringe Guns.
Fixes "ignite on hit" and lets consumables (Milk, Sandvich, etc) charge via dmg.