New A few FF2 balance suggestions

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#1
Some weapons/hales have been problematic so I made a list of changes that might shake the meta a bit and make the server a bit more enjoyable to be on. This list doesn't include glitched stats like half the stats on the manmelter or sniper rifle 0% damage bonuses, just actual changes that will affect gameplay. There also might be some things I either forgot about or just don't know how they could be changed reasonably (baby faces blaster, reserve shooter). I can't say much about maps considering I don't know much about making or balancing them. I didn't put much explanation for these for times sake, just ask about any proposed changes you're curious about and I'll do my best to answer
i know only like 3 people take FF2 balancing somewhat seriously but i still felt like making this

Scout
Primary

Force A Nature: Increase damage to 90% from 60% and remove the vanilla damage penalty(a ~25% increase), Add 10% slower movement speed on wearer
Soda Popper: Increase clip size to 3
Shortstop: Decrease damage bonus to 150%, remove accuracy+firing speed and remove the “minicrit when it crits” stat
Secondary
Pretty Boy’s Pocket Pistol: Add 50% accuracy bonus
Crit-A-Cola: Add 25% increase in recharge rate
Melee
Atomizer: Remove HP and deploy speed penalty, Add mark for death while active+shortly after switching as well as a 20% speed penalty while active
Sandman: Remove HP penalty, add 100% slower weapon switch across all weapons

Soldier
Primary

Black Box: Remove firing+reload speed bonuses, Buff maximum HP on hit to 60
Air Strike: Increase reload speed to 30%
Direct Hit: Add 20% reload speed bonus, remove firing speed bonus
Secondary
Battalion's Backup: Decrease damage resistance to 50%, remove the buff duration penalty
Conch+Buff: Add 25% buff duration bonus

Pyro
Primary

Stock: Decrease damage bonus to 110%
Degreaser: Decrease damage bonus to 100%
Dragon’s Fury: Buff base damage bonus from 60% to 100%, Increase ammo capacity, add airblast ammo penalty
Phlog: Increase buff duration from -30% to -20%, Add 30% damage vulnerability while active and 100% slower weapon switch
Secondary
Gas Passer: Increase afterburn damage
Melee
S.V.F.: Add a 400% afterburn damage bonus or 20 per tick, increase damage penalty to 50%


Demoman
Primary

Bootlegger+Booties: Add fall damage resistance
Loch-n-Load: Decrease reload+firing speed to 45%
Secondary
Stickybomb+Quickiebomb launcher: Increase damage to 50%
Scottish Resistance: Allow up to 24 stickies out at once, buff ammo capacity, add minicrits when it would crit
Melee
Scotsman's Skullcutter: Buff damage bonus to 156% (this should be 500 damage a hit or very close to it), add 40% slower firing speed


Heavy
Increase base hp to 450
Secondary
Family Business: -50 max health on equip
Melee
Fists of Steel: Remove melee vuln. + Ranged resist, Add 50% resistance to melee while active, -75% health from all sources while active and 25% slower move speed while active
Warriors Spirit: Remove damage bonus

Engineer
Primary

Shotgun: Mini-crit charge
Pompson/Panic Attack: Remove the firing speed+Reload speed stats
Widowmaker: Increase damage bonus to 100%, remove the firing speed
Secondary
Wrangler: Add 100% higher jump height while active
Pistol: Give the same stats as scout's pistol with minicrits
Melee
Gunslinger Mini-Sentry: Add 50% damage bonus

Medic
Secondary

Quick fix: Decrease uber build rate
Vaccinator: Add mini-crits on uber
Melee
All Melees excluding ubersaw: 10% uber on hit

Sniper
Primary

Bazaar Bargain: Add a 50% damage bonus to compensate for the lack of charge rate
Hitman’s Heatmaker: Add a 25% reload speed bonus
Secondary
Cleaner’s Carbine: Increase clip size to 8 and increase firing speed
Darwin’s Danger Shield: Add +75 HP on wearer, remove the fire resistances

Spy
Primary

Possible rework for spy revolvers: Increase damage bonus to 175% for stock, amby and diamondback, 140% for l'etranger and 110% for enforcer but remove minicrits for primaries. spies shouldn't be snipers
Ambassador: Remove the 30% firing speed bonus this happened
Enforcer: Remove accuracy penalty
Diamondback: Increase damage to 100%, clip size to 3
L’etranger: Increase ammo capacity
Secondary
Red Tape Recorder: Disables fall damage but also disables HP regen entirely
Melee
Kunai: Increase HP on stab to 600, add 30% quicker overheal decay
Backstabs for all knives: Remove damage ramp and make backstab damage always do ~2.25% of hale’s hp with a minimum of 1k damage
Cloak
Invis: Add 5% faster move speed on wearer, add 25% faster cloak drain rate
Cloak and Dagger: Remove cloak regen and add 200% cloak drain rate but 75% resistance to damage while cloaked

Multi Class
Base Jumper: Add 50 HP bonus on wearer
Shotguns: Add 25% accuracy bonus

Hales
Cave Johnson: Increase direct pipe damage to 261 (45% penalty to 37%, just enough to 1 shot baby faces scouts) but remove the extra 10% firing speed bonus. A projectile speed bonus might help make chasing soldiers/scouts less painful as well
Bladeoman: Add a 16% damage penalty on his melee (226-227 a hit)
Robot Sniper: Add 25% damage penalty on his melee, Decrease ammo on rage to 4 and add the “No Flinching while Aiming” stat on his rifle, give 5s of uber and sentry stun on rage
Antasma: Add a short stun on rage and increase minion count
Jacket: Give a weighdown, increase ammo on rage to 8, add brief 2-3 second stun on rage. Significantly increase damage required to rage
Hans Volter: Remove the Insta-weighdown
Werewolf of London: A more visible model. Or just remove him, either is fine :)
All huntsman hales: Reduce huntsman arrow damage to 230, add 12 bleed/tick for 5 seconds
Spyper: Remove the knockback resist stat on his invis watch so he takes knockback, add crits on headshot for his revolver
Pyronus: Reduce his HP by 15% or so
Steve: Battalion's resistances on rage
that's all, let me know what you think
 

Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#2
I will attempt to address all of these -

Before I do, keep in mind I follow this ruleset -
Not everything needs to be viable
Your favorite weapon does not need a buff.
There is no perfect balance.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that it should be nerfed.
Just because I say something is okay does not mean it will happen. This is simply my analysis and SOME changes here MAY be considered.

This is not a direct address to everything in this post, but in general.

Scout
Force a nature already has disruptive gameplay, encouraging it will only lead to more hale players asking for knockback resistance.
Soda popper for the same reason, disruptive gameplay that encourages delaying with the added increase in soda popper charge rate
PBPP is a hard hitting slow fire, treat it like a revolver.
CritACola does not need a recharge rate, scout has an extremely high base dps on scattergun alone.
Atomizer for the same reason of soda popper & FAN
Sandman for the same reason of soda popper & FAN

Soldier
Black box promotes delaying and consistent running and neglects the one downside of rocket jumping - health loss
Airstike is a negligible but potential buff, it rarely sees any play but I would rather see a ammo capacity buff.
Direct hit is strong enough, explosives should not be highly spamable with fast reload.
Battalions can not be changed / edited on damage resistance, and removal of buff duration penalty is possibly the dumbest thing I've read across this so far.
Conch and buff banner do deserve an increase but can lead to disruptive when tested, so they stay as is.

Pyro - Across all these changes, I would rather still see an increase in airblast cost and repressurization across all flamethrowers.
Stock - Sure
Degrease - Sure
Dragon's Fury - 40% is large, if anything, begin with 10-20%
Phlog - 100% weapon switch is harsh, would set it around 50% and instead of damage vulnerability, have the pyro slowed, though I'm not sure if this can be edited in that way.
Gas passer is obscelete, not every weapon needs to be viable.
SVF - May be considered, damage numbers need testing.

Demoman
No fall damage resistance will be enough if the demo lands far enough (in which cases 70% of the time the boss, if the demo would die from fall damage originally, would still die) they are fine how they are, perhaps extra regen.
Loch - Sure
Stickies - They had high damage before, we are not going through that period again.
Scottish - May be consideration, but encourages camping / idling demos
Skullcutter - Maybe.

Heavy
Health is fine where it is at 3 hits.
Family Business - Sure.
FoS - Sure, not sure if changes can be made.
Warriors Spirit - Doesn't need change

Engineer
Shotgun - Introduces issues with cross class.
Pomson / Panic Attack - They are fine how they are
Widowmaker - Encourages engineers sitting on amplifiers in corners of the map, this is not being changed.
Wrangler - Wrangler is strong as it is, does not need a buff.
Pistol - Pistol is weak enough on engineer, it is not causing problems.
Melee - Minisentry is spammable enough, does not need a buff.

Medic
All the medigun changes were made precisely, they do not need changes. They are all situational aside from stock.
Ubersaw is unique, there does not need to be a spread of equal stats.

Sniper
Bazaar - This is a 5 shot nerf and a 20+ shot buff, I don't need to say anything else.
HH - Active is strong enough.
Carbine - Sniper has wall climb.
DDS - Changes are still being considered for this and in the workings possibly.

Spy
Changes for primaries have already been set through and worked on, I will not respond to these.
RTR - Does not need a change, regen is more powerful than anything.
Kunai - It's fine where it is.
Backstab - We have done calculations for this, and formulated many equations, there is no need for change.
Invis Watch - Encourages letranger gun spy to delay.
C&D - Same as above

Multi Class
These changes won't make a difference.
Accuracy and projectile speed changes are discouraged due to disruption from basic gameplay skills, very few exceptions.

Hales
CJ - Changes are planned already.
Bladeoman - Damage change will not change much, melees have been preset to follow certain guidelines in damage already.
Robot Sniper - He's fine where he is, potential change is stun.
Antasma - Minion count has been an issue, and will not change. Stun is considered.
Jacket - Sure.
HV - Was originally coded into the boss, may be updated to match current stock.
WoL - There is no way to get around the model, TF2 forces it.
Link / CBS - That ruins the point of the bosses.
Spyper - He's fine, you're creating another gentlespy with more shots but same chance to one shot.
Pyronus - Not needed.
Steve - Fine as is.

Overall I'm not a fan of many of these proposed changes, though I see time and effort put into it, so some are considered. Don't take anything I say personally.
 
#3
I will attempt to address all of these -

Before I do, keep in mind I follow this ruleset -
Not everything needs to be viable
Your favorite weapon does not need a buff.
There is no perfect balance.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that it should be nerfed.
Just because I say something is okay does not mean it will happen. This is simply my analysis and SOME changes here MAY be considered.

This is not a direct address to everything in this post, but in general.

Scout
Force a nature already has disruptive gameplay, encouraging it will only lead to more hale players asking for knockback resistance.
Soda popper for the same reason, disruptive gameplay that encourages delaying with the added increase in soda popper charge rate
PBPP is a hard hitting slow fire, treat it like a revolver.
CritACola does not need a recharge rate, scout has an extremely high base dps on scattergun alone.
Atomizer for the same reason of soda popper & FAN
Sandman for the same reason of soda popper & FAN

Soldier
Black box promotes delaying and consistent running and neglects the one downside of rocket jumping - health loss
Airstike is a negligible but potential buff, it rarely sees any play but I would rather see a ammo capacity buff.
Direct hit is strong enough, explosives should not be highly spamable with fast reload.
Battalions can not be changed / edited on damage resistance, and removal of buff duration penalty is possibly the dumbest thing I've read across this so far.
Conch and buff banner do deserve an increase but can lead to disruptive when tested, so they stay as is.

Pyro - Across all these changes, I would rather still see an increase in airblast cost and repressurization across all flamethrowers.
Stock - Sure
Degrease - Sure
Dragon's Fury - 40% is large, if anything, begin with 10-20%
Phlog - 100% weapon switch is harsh, would set it around 50% and instead of damage vulnerability, have the pyro slowed, though I'm not sure if this can be edited in that way.
Gas passer is obscelete, not every weapon needs to be viable.
SVF - May be considered, damage numbers need testing.

Demoman
No fall damage resistance will be enough if the demo lands far enough (in which cases 70% of the time the boss, if the demo would die from fall damage originally, would still die) they are fine how they are, perhaps extra regen.
Loch - Sure
Stickies - They had high damage before, we are not going through that period again.
Scottish - May be consideration, but encourages camping / idling demos
Skullcutter - Maybe.

Heavy
Health is fine where it is at 3 hits.
Family Business - Sure.
FoS - Sure, not sure if changes can be made.
Warriors Spirit - Doesn't need change

Engineer
Shotgun - Introduces issues with cross class.
Pomson / Panic Attack - They are fine how they are
Widowmaker - Encourages engineers sitting on amplifiers in corners of the map, this is not being changed.
Wrangler - Wrangler is strong as it is, does not need a buff.
Pistol - Pistol is weak enough on engineer, it is not causing problems.
Melee - Minisentry is spammable enough, does not need a buff.

Medic
All the medigun changes were made precisely, they do not need changes. They are all situational aside from stock.
Ubersaw is unique, there does not need to be a spread of equal stats.

Sniper
Bazaar - This is a 5 shot nerf and a 20+ shot buff, I don't need to say anything else.
HH - Active is strong enough.
Carbine - Sniper has wall climb.
DDS - Changes are still being considered for this and in the workings possibly.

Spy
Changes for primaries have already been set through and worked on, I will not respond to these.
RTR - Does not need a change, regen is more powerful than anything.
Kunai - It's fine where it is.
Backstab - We have done calculations for this, and formulated many equations, there is no need for change.
Invis Watch - Encourages letranger gun spy to delay.
C&D - Same as above

Multi Class
These changes won't make a difference.
Accuracy and projectile speed changes are discouraged due to disruption from basic gameplay skills, very few exceptions.

Hales
CJ - Changes are planned already.
Bladeoman - Damage change will not change much, melees have been preset to follow certain guidelines in damage already.
Robot Sniper - He's fine where he is, potential change is stun.
Antasma - Minion count has been an issue, and will not change. Stun is considered.
Jacket - Sure.
HV - Was originally coded into the boss, may be updated to match current stock.
WoL - There is no way to get around the model, TF2 forces it.
Link / CBS - That ruins the point of the bosses.
Spyper - He's fine, you're creating another gentlespy with more shots but same chance to one shot.
Pyronus - Not needed.
Steve - Fine as is.

Overall I'm not a fan of many of these proposed changes, though I see time and effort put into it, so some are considered. Don't take anything I say personally.
Well you make a good point with some of these, a lot of these were just off the top of my head and based off other players ideas but I still want to say a few things

The downside of 10% slower firing speed in comparison to stock or 5% damage for stock reskins is pitiful for the Warriors Spirit upside of regaining well over 65 hp a hit, it shouldn't do as much damage as other melees if you can regain most your hp just meleeing anyone on the other team

The Widowmaker should have its firing speed removed or nerfed regardless
The Pomson/Panic attack are used by almost every engi that knows about their ability for them, while I don't think usage rate is a big reason to change a weapon I think it should be more of a utility than a damage tool. Reducing its DPS seems reasonable

Quick Fix is balanced for the most part, I just think it shouldn't build such a powerful uber so incredibly fast.

It seems like L'etranger has been the cause of quite a few spy changes, I think reworking the weapon so its upside is unrelated to cloak is a better solution rather than punishing spy watches

Kunai is just a dumb weapon for FF2. For spy/scout hales you remain a 2 hit and survive 3 hits after a stab making it pointless not to use, while regular 270 damage hales make you a 1 hit for the upside that almost every other knife has- being a 2 hit. I still think it needs a rework of some sort, same with big earner

The first spy backstab or two still does too much damage, I have seen this countless times and I'm sure everyone reading this has as well: A hale with a powerful rage jumps right into a crowd of reds as soon as the round starts, gets backstabbed 2 seconds after, rages and kills half the team. It's also dumb that a spy that gets the first two backstabs is more likely to outdamage everyone against a decent hale a spy that gets the next 5 or 6 just because of their performance in the first 30 seconds of the match.

I also forgot to mention Easter bunny. His design of punishing the entire team for 1 players death or even a dead ringer is stupid, and crit eggs can be a problem for hale if a decent player picks them up. I recommend removing crit eggs all together and giving a damage bonus to his rage

I never said a headshot as spyper had to 1 shot, but I think it should be close. IIRC his revolver has a 150% damage bonus so a crit would do 300 damage so that would have to be changed if it were added

Pyronus having stun, uber, flares and chain lightning is powerful enough but 90k+ hp in a full lobby is overkill. He's also an upgrade in every way to Dark Vader but I think DV should just be removed at this point.

One last thing, why do you think certain weapons shouldn't be viable? If a weapons ability is useless in a VSH environment it could be turned into a completely different weapon fit for this gamemode (take half of sniper's secondaries for example), the same could be done if it were annoying or overpowered.

All said, thanks for the full reply
 
#4
A lot of these weapons do need adjustments. Some of them are weak (to the point where you may as well be putting yourself at a disadvantage), while a few overshadow the rest. So here's my take on @deluxeuser's suggestions.

Multi-class
BASE Jumper:
Agreed. It makes you a sitting duck. Without any bonuses, there's no reason to use it.

Shotguns: If I had to guess, Engie's shotguns might not have been given mini-crits because it would affect his Sentry. They do affect Soldier's rockets, Pyro's flames and Heavy's Huo Long Heater. It might be best if the mini-crits were done away with, for now. An accuracy bonus could slightly compensate for such a change. Although set bullet spread would be more effective and could benefit other classes as well.

Scout
Force-a-Nature: Agreed. Damage at the expense of speed could be fair. It's weak and annoying otherwise.

Soda Popper: On the fence. +1 clip size wouldn't be enough to make a difference. The only strength it has is the Hype effect.

Shorstop: Agreed. It needs a rework that staves away from the "can't be crit boosted" stat. However, I think it would be much better off with extra reload speed instead of a spread bonus (it's already pretty accurate).

Pocket Pistol: Disagreed. IMO, the PBPP should be reverted to its vanilla state, then balanced from there. The current version is a weak, glorified Revolver for Scout. It adds nothing of value to the game.

Crit-A-Cola: Disagreed. The crit boost is strong; it'll be more noticeable if Scout's primaries get fixed.

Atomizer: On the fence. Valve did fix the exploit allowing players to bypass the deploy speed penalty. However, adding both marked-for-death and a movement speed penalty would be too much. Either or.

Sandman: Disagreed. It's a good idea, but I think the health penalty makes sense for this one.

Soldier
Black Box:
On the fence. +60 health on hit is a bit high. It'd be too strong when combined with the Gunboats or Battalion's Backup. It would need a penalty like reduced ammo or health from healers.

Air Strike: On the fence. An extra +15% reload rate wouldn't be enough. It has low dmg and eats ammo.

Direct Hit: Disagreed. It's pretty good, now. I don't see much reason to swap its fire rate for reload speed.

Battalion's Backup: This is impossible. From what I know, the damage resistance is coded into the condition.

Concheror: Disagreed. It's already pretty good, the speed and vampirism buffs are useful.

Buff Banner: Agreed. It's the weakest banner. +2 seconds isn't much, but it's something.

Pyro
Flamethrower:
Disagreed. Pyro's damage output has already been crippled enough. Poor guy.

Degreaser: On the fence. Less damage would make sense if it had an ammo bonus.

Dragon's Fury: Agreed, but I don't think it would need more than +25% ammo capacity.

Phlogistinator: Disagreed. A damage vulnerability would hurt it.

Gas Passser: I don't think it's possible. If there's a way, that would be awesome. Although I imagine the MvM explosive effect is probably out of the question. I've heard it's rediculously powerful.

Volcano Fragment: On the fence. It's a good idea, but it might be exploitable. For example, shoot a flare, switch to the SVF, profit. It'd need testing.

Demoman
Bootleggers / Wee Booties:
On the fence. This could hurt the BASE Jumper. What about a small rocket jump damage reduction, instead?

Loch-n-Load: Agreed. As it stands, this weapon is a direct upgrade. It needs a small nerf.

Stickybomb Launchers: Disagreed. I think the Stock and Quickiebomb are fine as it is. The Scottish Resistance on the other hand... that's a 12000 damage crit sticky trap right there. Nope nope nope.

Scotsman's Skullcutter: Agreed. but I think you're looking for +178% damage. ((60 x 2.78) x3) = ~500. IMO, people would probably use the Skullcutter if the Eyelander wasn't so powerful.

Heavy
About Heavy:
It'd make more sense if he had 550 base health and no health bonuses on his Miniguns. That's how it was back when, then for some reason his health was "split" onto his Miniguns. I still can't fathom why.

Family Business: Disagreed. However, I would get rid of the +25% weapon switch speed bonus.

Fists of Steel: Agreed. Although I think it should keep a small ranged damage resistance bonus.

Warrior's Spirit: Agreed. But I'd also trade the swing speed for more health on hit. +65 is low.

Engineer
Pompson / Panic Attack:
Agreed. They deal enough damage, they don't need those bonuses.

Widowmaker: On the fence. I think it would be better off taking 40 metal per shot. 50 is too much when the bullets fly in random directions. On the other hand, it could lose the legacy +5% movement speed.

Wrangler: On the fence. Extra jump height seems random. If you want Engies to fly, maybe self damage force is the stat you're looking for?

Pistol: Disagree. I'd rather see it the other way around; crits let you play aggressively, which is entertaining.

Gunslinger: Agreed. The mini-sentry does very little damage, not even enough to be remotely annoying.

Medic
Bonesaws:
Disagree. I don't think giving all bonesaws +10% uber on hit would improve much. The Ubersaw would still be decidedly the most powerful, followed by the Amputator, then maybe Stock. His melees could be individually rebalanced around their quirks, but that'd almost warrant a separate discussion.

Quick-Fix: Disagreed. The ability to spam ubers is what keeps it relevant. It's a glorified vanilla Kritzkrieg; the Medic or his pocket will die if they get focused. (Meanwhile, the actual Kritzkrieg is superior).

Vaccinator: Agreed. It's the weakest Medigun. No damage boost, no invincibility, it's only useful in a few rare situations or when you're the last player alive. An extra effect like mini-crits would make it better than a weak meme weapon for battle medics.

Sniper
Bazaar Bargain:
Disagreed. From what I know it's functionally identical to the stock, it shouldn't charge slower.

Hitman's Heatmaker: Agreed. It and the Classic deal less damage by default, they could use something.

Cleaner's Carbine: Agreed. It was butchered by a series of nerfs and then made completely irrelevant with the addition of wall climbing. It's absolutely worthless; these buffs are at least a consolation prize.

Darwin's Danger Shield: Agreed. Although, you could remove the fire immunity and have +50 health instead. Players might be confused if the fire resistance is totally removed, since that's its quirk.

Spy

Backstab damage:
Disagree. I don't think backstab damage needs to be changed. It's reasonable where it is.

Revolvers: Disagree. I don't think removing their mini-crits and increasing their dmg would deter Spies from playing Sniper. If you increase the Stock's dmg from 90% to 175%, it would almost outweigh losing the mini-crits (+30% dmg and no fall-off). Spies might be further encouraged to cloak stall or camp amplifiers for crits so they can snipe for 330 across the map. That's ~2000 dmg per clip.

Ambassador: Disagreed. The fire rate bonus wasn't vital, its higher-than-stock damage with the ability to headshot is why it's a direct upgrade. It needs the vanilla damage penalty to be more reasonable.

Enforcer: Disagreed. It's underused, but without the spread penalty it's too effective at medium range.

Diamondback: Agreed. Although I think +100% dmg would be a little too much.

L'Étranger: Agreed. Other guns have more ammo. It's fair. The Invis Watch is the real problem maker.

Kunai: Disagreed. While I think it's weak, I don't believe it needs to be changed right now.

Sappers: I'm against placing stats on them unless they're replaced by weapons at the start of the round. Passive bonuses have been tried on both and they didn't add anything of value to the game.

Invis Watch: I can't agree with much unless it mitigates cloak stalling. For example, by preventing Spies from recharging while invisible and decreasing how much charge they get from ammo boxes.

Cloak and Dagger: It's an interesting idea, but I don't know if cloaked dmg resistances can be changed.

Hales
Cave Johnson:
On the fence. 203 damage is low, but I don't think it should be higher than ~250.

Blade'o'Man: Disagreed. I don't think it's necessary to reduce his damage. He has other problems.

Robot Sniper: On the fence. I don't think his melee damage should be reduced, or that he should get Uber on rage. However, I agree with reducing his Sniper Rifle ammo and giving him the ability to spook.

Antasma: Agreed. However, the force of his dash needs to be reduced. He can basically noclip.

Jacket: Agreed. He's a weak boss that could benefit from these touch ups.

Hans Volter: Agreed. However, he has a bunch of other issues as well. For example; he uses an Eyelander despite not showing a sword or supporting those animations, his Classic has several problems relating to its ammo and the special effects of his rage (bleed, jarate) are very inconsistent.

Werewolf of London: Agreed. He's just as broken now as he was all those years ago.

Hales w/ the Huntsman: Disagreed. That would cripple the affected bosses.

Spyper: Disagreed. I think the knockback resistance on his Invis Watch should be looked into, but his Revolver is alright. My own issues with him is that he's not fun to play as or against, perhaps tweaking his weapons to reward him with speed after a kill could allow him to play more aggressively.

Pyronous:
Disagreed. I don't think it's necessary to adjust his health. It's fair as it is.

Steve:
Disagreed. However, I'd remove his ear-rape lightning in favour of a short spook.

It's good to see another mega thread like this. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it.
Now, I think... I'm going to go pass out.
 
#5
A lot of these weapons do need adjustments. Some of them are weak (to the point where you may as well be putting yourself at a disadvantage), while a few overshadow the rest. So here's my take on @deluxeuser's suggestions.

Multi-class
BASE Jumper:
Agreed. It makes you a sitting duck. Without any bonuses, there's no reason to use it.

Shotguns: If I had to guess, Engie's shotguns might not have been given mini-crits because it would affect his Sentry. They do affect Soldier's rockets, Pyro's flames and Heavy's Huo Long Heater. It might be best if the mini-crits were done away with, for now. An accuracy bonus could slightly compensate for such a change. Although set bullet spread would be more effective and could benefit other classes as well.

Scout
Force-a-Nature: Agreed. Damage at the expense of speed could be fair. It's weak and annoying otherwise.

Soda Popper: On the fence. +1 clip size wouldn't be enough to make a difference. The only strength it has is the Hype effect.

Shorstop: Agreed. It needs a rework that staves away from the "can't be crit boosted" stat. However, I think it would be much better off with extra reload speed instead of a spread bonus (it's already pretty accurate).

Pocket Pistol: Disagreed. IMO, the PBPP should be reverted to its vanilla state, then balanced from there. The current version is a weak, glorified Revolver for Scout. It adds nothing of value to the game.

Crit-A-Cola: Disagreed. The crit boost is strong; it'll be more noticeable if Scout's primaries get fixed.

Atomizer: On the fence. Valve did fix the exploit allowing players to bypass the deploy speed penalty. However, adding both marked-for-death and a movement speed penalty would be too much. Either or.

Sandman: Disagreed. It's a good idea, but I think the health penalty makes sense for this one.

Soldier
Black Box:
On the fence. +60 health on hit is a bit high. It'd be too strong when combined with the Gunboats or Battalion's Backup. It would need a penalty like reduced ammo or health from healers.

Air Strike: On the fence. An extra +15% reload rate wouldn't be enough. It has low dmg and eats ammo.

Direct Hit: Disagreed. It's pretty good, now. I don't see much reason to swap its fire rate for reload speed.

Battalion's Backup: This is impossible. From what I know, the damage resistance is coded into the condition.

Concheror: Disagreed. It's already pretty good, the speed and vampirism buffs are useful.

Buff Banner: Agreed. It's the weakest banner. +2 seconds isn't much, but it's something.

Pyro
Flamethrower:
Disagreed. Pyro's damage output has already been crippled enough. Poor guy.

Degreaser: On the fence. Less damage would make sense if it had an ammo bonus.

Dragon's Fury: Agreed, but I don't think it would need more than +25% ammo capacity.

Phlogistinator: Disagreed. A damage vulnerability would hurt it.

Gas Passser: I don't think it's possible. If there's a way, that would be awesome. Although I imagine the MvM explosive effect is probably out of the question. I've heard it's rediculously powerful.

Volcano Fragment: On the fence. It's a good idea, but it might be exploitable. For example, shoot a flare, switch to the SVF, profit. It'd need testing.

Demoman
Bootleggers / Wee Booties:
On the fence. This could hurt the BASE Jumper. What about a small rocket jump damage reduction, instead?

Loch-n-Load: Agreed. As it stands, this weapon is a direct upgrade. It needs a small nerf.

Stickybomb Launchers: Disagreed. I think the Stock and Quickiebomb are fine as it is. The Scottish Resistance on the other hand... that's a 12000 damage crit sticky trap right there. Nope nope nope.

Scotsman's Skullcutter: Agreed. but I think you're looking for +178% damage. ((60 x 2.78) x3) = ~500. IMO, people would probably use the Skullcutter if the Eyelander wasn't so powerful.

Heavy
About Heavy:
It'd make more sense if he had 550 base health and no health bonuses on his Miniguns. That's how it was back when, then for some reason his health was "split" onto his Miniguns. I still can't fathom why.

Family Business: Disagreed. However, I would get rid of the +25% weapon switch speed bonus.

Fists of Steel: Agreed. Although I think it should keep a small ranged damage resistance bonus.

Warrior's Spirit: Agreed. But I'd also trade the swing speed for more health on hit. +65 is low.

Engineer
Pompson / Panic Attack:
Agreed. They deal enough damage, they don't need those bonuses.

Widowmaker: On the fence. I think it would be better off taking 40 metal per shot. 50 is too much when the bullets fly in random directions. On the other hand, it could lose the legacy +5% movement speed.

Wrangler: On the fence. Extra jump height seems random. If you want Engies to fly, maybe self damage force is the stat you're looking for?

Pistol: Disagree. I'd rather see it the other way around; crits let you play aggressively, which is entertaining.

Gunslinger: Agreed. The mini-sentry does very little damage, not even enough to be remotely annoying.

Medic
Bonesaws:
Disagree. I don't think giving all bonesaws +10% uber on hit would improve much. The Ubersaw would still be decidedly the most powerful, followed by the Amputator, then maybe Stock. His melees could be individually rebalanced around their quirks, but that'd almost warrant a separate discussion.

Quick-Fix: Disagreed. The ability to spam ubers is what keeps it relevant. It's a glorified vanilla Kritzkrieg; the Medic or his pocket will die if they get focused. (Meanwhile, the actual Kritzkrieg is superior).

Vaccinator: Agreed. It's the weakest Medigun. No damage boost, no invincibility, it's only useful in a few rare situations or when you're the last player alive. An extra effect like mini-crits would make it better than a weak meme weapon for battle medics.

Sniper
Bazaar Bargain:
Disagreed. From what I know it's functionally identical to the stock, it shouldn't charge slower.

Hitman's Heatmaker: Agreed. It and the Classic deal less damage by default, they could use something.

Cleaner's Carbine: Agreed. It was butchered by a series of nerfs and then made completely irrelevant with the addition of wall climbing. It's absolutely worthless; these buffs are at least a consolation prize.

Darwin's Danger Shield: Agreed. Although, you could remove the fire immunity and have +50 health instead. Players might be confused if the fire resistance is totally removed, since that's its quirk.

Spy
Backstab damage:
Disagree. I don't think backstab damage needs to be changed. It's reasonable where it is.

Revolvers: Disagree. I don't think removing their mini-crits and increasing their dmg would deter Spies from playing Sniper. If you increase the Stock's dmg from 90% to 175%, it would almost outweigh losing the mini-crits (+30% dmg and no fall-off). Spies might be further encouraged to cloak stall or camp amplifiers for crits so they can snipe for 330 across the map. That's ~2000 dmg per clip.

Ambassador: Disagreed. The fire rate bonus wasn't vital, its higher-than-stock damage with the ability to headshot is why it's a direct upgrade. It needs the vanilla damage penalty to be more reasonable.

Enforcer: Disagreed. It's underused, but without the spread penalty it's too effective at medium range.

Diamondback: Agreed. Although I think +100% dmg would be a little too much.

L'Étranger: Agreed. Other guns have more ammo. It's fair. The Invis Watch is the real problem maker.

Kunai: Disagreed. While I think it's weak, I don't believe it needs to be changed right now.

Sappers: I'm against placing stats on them unless they're replaced by weapons at the start of the round. Passive bonuses have been tried on both and they didn't add anything of value to the game.

Invis Watch: I can't agree with much unless it mitigates cloak stalling. For example, by preventing Spies from recharging while invisible and decreasing how much charge they get from ammo boxes.

Cloak and Dagger: It's an interesting idea, but I don't know if cloaked dmg resistances can be changed.

Hales
Cave Johnson:
On the fence. 203 damage is low, but I don't think it should be higher than ~250.

Blade'o'Man: Disagreed. I don't think it's necessary to reduce his damage. He has other problems.

Robot Sniper: On the fence. I don't think his melee damage should be reduced, or that he should get Uber on rage. However, I agree with reducing his Sniper Rifle ammo and giving him the ability to spook.

Antasma: Agreed. However, the force of his dash needs to be reduced. He can basically noclip.

Jacket: Agreed. He's a weak boss that could benefit from these touch ups.

Hans Volter: Agreed. However, he has a bunch of other issues as well. For example; he uses an Eyelander despite not showing a sword or supporting those animations, his Classic has several problems relating to its ammo and the special effects of his rage (bleed, jarate) are very inconsistent.

Werewolf of London: Agreed. He's just as broken now as he was all those years ago.

Hales w/ the Huntsman: Disagreed. That would cripple the affected bosses.

Spyper: Disagreed. I think the knockback resistance on his Invis Watch should be looked into, but his Revolver is alright. My own issues with him is that he's not fun to play as or against, perhaps tweaking his weapons to reward him with speed after a kill could allow him to play more aggressively.

Pyronous: Disagreed. I don't think it's necessary to adjust his health. It's fair as it is.

Steve: Disagreed. However, I'd remove his ear-rape lightning in favour of a short spook.

It's good to see another mega thread like this. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it.
Now, I think... I'm going to go pass out.
You probably put more effort into this than I have tbh

Soda popper has underwhelming DPS in comparison to 4/6 shot primaries. 1 extra shot per clip would absolutely help, maybe too much honestly

Pyro does so much damage with just WM1, especially with crits.
Phlog is still really powerful for damage, It should have risk to using it
The gas passer could use changes but I don't really think the "explode on ignite" is fit for FF2

Scottish resistance would be too op with crits, thats why I suggested it not be able to crit
(Skullcutter would be 156% for 499.2 a hit, the base damage is 65 not 60) The claidheamh mor is used quite a bit already and eyelander has been nerfed. At most eyelander should have like 10-20 lower HP on equip if it still needs to be nerfed, I think other melees just need to be made more viable
Turning the bootlegger into a mini-gunboats sounds interesting but some maps have quite a few health packs.. you know what that means
That wouldn't really help out pure demoknight either

My goal with the wrangler was to make it more useful for a battle engi loadout and maybe see less usage of telepads/pomson+panic attack but knowing ff2 players they might just use abuse all 3. Engi already goes really far from sentry jumping, I dont think that should be changed. Wrangler right now just cripples your DPM in comparison to just using your automated sentry and primary/secondary for damage in return for turning minis into a 2 shot, and level 3s into a 4 shot and mobility you already have most of with the telepads and certain primaries.

Scout's pistol makes sniping less effective (33 damage a shot at max distance) while doing more than 50 damage a shot at point blank. Giving engi's pistol the same design would award playing aggressively

Bazaar bargain charges as fast as it does in vanilla with 0 heads, it should either be a stock re-skin or have a notable upside

Most people never went for headshots with the amby as spamming bodyshots was more effective and less difficult. Now you actually have to aim for headshots to get the benefit of the ambassador (although some hales dont have a head hitbox)

The diamondback hasn't really been touched since knifespy was insanely OP. Spy should have a semi-reliable backup for damage if backstabs aren't practical

I answered more of these in my other post
 

Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#6
I'm going to go ahead and stop this thread here, there's way too much to read here. I would prefer if you made a shorter thread with the most... immediate and desired changes rather than this entire list, it's not worth having these 300~ word responses having to be read and processed. If you feel the need to, add me on steam and I can discuss more closely there with you over specifics.
 
#7
I'm going to go ahead and stop this thread here, there's way too much to read here. I would prefer if you made a shorter thread with the most... immediate and desired changes rather than this entire list, it's not worth having these 300~ word responses having to be read and processed. If you feel the need to, add me on steam and I can discuss more closely there with you over specifics.
Added since I don't really want to make another thread after all that
 
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