Reentering Armory Rule Change

Blues can Reenter Armory Rule should stay

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 50.0%
  • No

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • Total voters
    10
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1769

Recognized Member
New JB rule as of September 10th allows Blues to reenter Armory *facepalm*

Discuss your opinions here not on the server maintenance thread since this is a very controversial decision.

My opinion: @Asu change the rule back quickly before too many people get used to it. It will take more admin effort to stop camping in armory by blues. I can already here the armory camping and fighting and I'm not even logged in. Please, this made our server great for rebellers and a challenge for blues (both handling rebellers and managing ammo), don't conform to other servers, next thing you know blues will have all crits. In all seriousness, I don't know if I will play jb anymore if this rule doesn't change back.
 

Thresher

Recognized Member
Please, this made our server great for rebellers and a challenge for blues (both handling rebellers and managing ammo), don't conform to other servers, next thing you know blues will have all crits.
Thats like worst case scenario. I really dont like reentering armory.
 

Yuki

Administrator
Staff member
TF2 Admin
Alright. Fine. Rule reverted.
Enjoy the 90% rebel success rate.

Thread locked.
 

Katze

Recognized Member
Sorry for the necro post, but I'd actually like this rule to be reconsidered (i always run out of rockets and gunboats > shotgun).

Have you actually played many matches before whining for this rule to be removed? There is no evidence that it's game breaking, if a BLU is camping armory, it's exactly the same problem as a rebel camping armory.

"Conforming to other servers" is a shitty argument. Most other servers allow it because it's been shown to be balanced.

I can already here the armory camping and fighting and I'm not even logged in.
The only "evidence" thus far that re-entering is broken. To be quite honest, I want the rule to re-allow entry mostly because of gameplay, but also because I'm fucking sick of everyone whining to slay *insert new player* because he wants to replenish ammo after a mass rebelling.
With no re-entry allowed, reds can easily access armory for full HP and ammo as they please, as long as an easily accessible entrance is available, while blues are slowly constricted to the conformity the reds originally had: no ammo, melee only, except no mercy against blues.

Not to mention the occasions where it's 4 blues against 18 reds. Wrangling them is a fucking pain in the ass as is, and running out of ammo is a huge annoyance that you can do NOTHING about.

Sorry to directly undo your lock Spec, but I'd actually be interested to see if any good reasoning is brought up not to allow re-entry. If we could have an actual balance discussion instead of QQ, I'd greatly appreciate the opportunity to see your point of view on the topic.
 

CrossaintBandit

Recognized Member
I dont know Whether I should post here or not but; When i first started playing on SG jailbreak the allowed dispencers, It may have been a glitch or whatnot but this allowed blus ammo WITHOUT them having to reenter. Even if it does drop metal when broken the solution is to not put the dispencer next to the reds. i dont know why it was removed since Im not good at coding but if we managed to make usable dispencers for blus That would be a win for both sides of the fight
 

Thresher

Recognized Member
"Conforming to other servers" is a shitty argument. Most other servers allow it because it's been shown to be balanced.
Just throwing this out here, we can put jailbreak to rest if they consider crits for blues next.
Most servers allow that to. That's balanced to right?
 

1769

Recognized Member
Have you actually played many matches before whining for this rule to be removed? There is no evidence that it's game breaking, if a BLU is camping armory, it's exactly the same problem as a rebel camping armory.

It's not the same. Rebels who camp armory are usually just waiting for a better chance to rebel while blues swarm the exit, while blues who camp armory are just waiting for rebels to come by so they can be killed without a chance to fight.

With no re-entry allowed, reds can easily access armory for full HP and ammo as they please, as long as an easily accessible entrance is available, while blues are slowly constricted to the conformity the reds originally had: no ammo, melee only, except no mercy against blues.

I could agree that blues have much more restrictions on what they can tell reds to do and I wouldn't be a fan of that if I played more blue. We could make a compromise that allows warden to make more restrictions such as "blues can what weapons a red may have out" or even get rid of the taunt freezing rule, but allowing blues to reenter armory is not the solution (seriously though, what kind of jail would allow prisoners to have knives out?).

If you are arguing that running out of ammo on blue is a problem, GOOD. That's how it is supposed to be. If blues can get ammo whenver they please, they will shoot willy-nilly and freeshoot innocent reds because wasting ammo is not an issue. If we limit the amount of ammo blues can have they will be much more aware of their amount of ammo and actually aim for targets and use team work to kill rebellers instead of just spamming m1 until a rebeller is dead.

I dont know Whether I should post here or not but; When i first started playing on SG jailbreak the allowed dispencers, It may have been a glitch or whatnot but this allowed blus ammo WITHOUT them having to reenter. Even if it does drop metal when broken the solution is to not put the dispencer next to the reds. i dont know why it was removed since Im not good at coding but if we managed to make usable dispencers for blus That would be a win for both sides of the fight

I can't think of a problem with this, but I would need to see it in action.

TL;DR "If it ain't broken don't fix it" I've played hundreds and hundreds of rounds of jb with the current no-reentering armory rule and I've seen good blues manage this rule without a problem and I've never felt like this was unfair. I will not play jb anymore if the no reentering armory rule is removed.
 

Yuki

Administrator
Staff member
TF2 Admin
Just throwing this out here, we can put jailbreak to rest if they consider crits for blues next.
Most servers allow that to. That's balanced to right?
Since when did giving BLU crits ever show up? You're just taking things on a completely different level.

EDIT: I'm done. I get screamed at for either side.
 
Last edited:

Katze

Recognized Member
Just throwing this out here, we can put jailbreak to rest if they consider crits for blues next.
Most servers allow that to. That's balanced to right?
No comment, because that's a ludicrously idiotic notion.

The main issue is when reds vastly outnumber blues, it's incredibly easy to be isolated and lose all your ammo. 24 rockets with no secondary, 200 bullets that suck at rebelling CC (that run out VERY quickly), or 36 shotgun shots. Assuming there are 18 reds vs 4 blues, 18 reds with HP buffs, soldiers will have to spend 2-4 rockets to kill one rebel, scouts 2-4 shots, heavy around one-eighth of his ammo (assuming they're hitting most shots for max damage at medium range with damage dropoff). I don't see why ducking into armory to get ammo is a big deal. If they camp there waiting for reds, it's almost the exact same situation as a red camping armory. You wait until the opposite color leaves/appears to try and make a kill. And to be quite frank, I think it would add difficulty to rebelling, because there is hardly any as is. Reds can sit in armory and have a leisurely time fully stocking up on ammo and waiting for a chance to break loose. If blues were allowed to pressure them, they'd have to grab some ammo, escape again, and actually avoid guards.
TL;DR "If it ain't broken don't fix it" I've played hundreds and hundreds of rounds of jb with the current no-reentering armory rule and I've seen good blues manage this rule without a problem and I've never felt like this was unfair. I will not play jb anymore if the no reentering armory rule is removed.
Have you actually played many matches before whining for this rule to be removed?
Your argument here is, "don't change the game from how I like it, or I'm going to stop playing." If it was such a short change that you weren't logged in for most of, I don't see how you had the time to observe the balance aspects of this change. Instead, you decided to whine because it makes your job on red easier. None of your post actually applied to the re-entering rule, it only talks about how "good blues could compromise with limited ammo."
 

Pachi

Recognized Member
This is silly, the complaints are only coming from people that hardly play blue and are only complaining because they can't rebel as easily anymore.
If blues can get ammo whenver they please, they will shoot willy-nilly and freeshoot innocent reds because wasting ammo is not an issue.
Wasting ammo is still an issue, just because they can get ammo doesn't remove the threat of having 4 people rush at you(unless you're a heavy). When being overwhelmed like that you better make sure you're hitting your shots because you don't want to be reloading your guns while having 4 guys smacking you around.
All this rule means for rebellers is that you cant rebel from the get go because you're too close to armory, and that it isn't as mindless as doing zig zags while chasing your target.
Rebelling shouldn't be as easy as it is.
IT SHOULDN'T BE EASY TO PUNCH THE GUARD OF A PRISON TO DEATH
 

Thresher

Recognized Member
If it was such a short change that you weren't logged in for most of,
I havent seen you on SG in a while. Could be connection issues on my end causing that but whatever.

If you guys act like other servers got the armory reenter for balance, my point was that then all crit blues must be balanced.

Every single Tardis is now useless. On any map. All you need to is listen for that noise. Then bam. Useless.
And im not even gonna say anything about Chretin. It will even tell the blues that they can reenter to kill a rebel. So you cant get ammo there unless everyones across the entire map.

Armory reentering rule is what sets the SG jailbreak from the others. If were moving towards being like other servers, then why have a jailbreak server. Theres tons of them with those rules.
 

Yuki

Administrator
Staff member
TF2 Admin
This is silly, the complaints are only coming from people that hardly play blue and are only complaining because they can't rebel as easily anymore.

Wasting ammo is still an issue, just because they can get ammo doesn't remove the threat of having 4 people rush at you(unless you're a heavy). When being overwhelmed like that you better make sure you're hitting your shots because you don't want to be reloading your guns while having 4 guys smacking you around.
All this rule means for rebellers is that you cant rebel from the get go because you're too close to armory, and that it isn't as mindless as doing zig zags while chasing your target.
Rebelling shouldn't be as easy as it is.
IT SHOULDN'T BE EASY TO PUNCH THE GUARD OF A PRISON TO DEATH
This could be countered by restricting to stock and/or editing base stats of the base weapons.
 

Katze

Recognized Member
I havent seen you on SG in a while. Could be connection issues on my end causing that but whatever.

If you guys act like other servers got the armory reenter for balance, my point was that then all crit blues must be
I don't like to frequent the server anymore because of the unbearable social interactions

Crits is a completely different story than ammo stock and you know it. It's completely unrelated to the point at hand: Is re-entering balanced?

I know because you are biased against it, you will vote no. I honestly couldn't give a fuck about if the rule is added or not, but maybe it will add variety to this stale game of "stack red team to win"
 

Ibram

Recognized Member
Since when did giving BLU crits ever show up? You're just taking things on a completely different level.

EDIT: I'm done. I get screamed at for either side.
Chill a bit Asu, you aren't getting screamed at. People just want to come to an agreement so that it's fair for all.


As far as this goes, I'm on Katze side. BLU's should be allowed to re-enter armory as
  • To dispose of reds who ran into armory instead of having to take this whole "now you have to get out." deal
  • It makes it more challenging for a prisoner to plan rebellions instead of just running for armoury and camping there until reds are near the door
  • Reduces the need for admins needed to find out "who re-entered"
  • BLU's aren't punished for honest mistakes, like being backed up into armory and slain for it.
  • With full health packs in armory, RED's are able to get health much faster than the BLU's trying to kill the rebellers, making it completely unfair as BLU's have to travel to medic back and forth while RED's pick up the health packs and insta-heal. (Prominent in ml_castle)

I can see a problem with making rebelling harder, but it needs to be. As far as I have played on the servers, rebelling on SG is so much easier than any other. I am up for a challenge, and those who can't rebel smarter just have to conform to the warden. That is how Jailbreak should be played.
 

1769

Recognized Member
The main issue is when reds vastly outnumber blues, it's incredibly easy to be isolated and lose all your ammo. 24 rockets with no secondary, 200 bullets that suck at rebelling CC (that run out VERY quickly), or 36 shotgun shots. Assuming there are 18 reds vs 4 blues, 18 reds with HP buffs, soldiers will have to spend 2-4 rockets to kill one rebel, scouts 2-4 shots, heavy around one-eighth of his ammo (assuming they're hitting most shots for max damage at medium range with damage dropoff). I don't see why ducking into armory to get ammo is a big deal. If they camp there waiting for reds, it's almost the exact same situation as a red camping armory. You wait until the opposite color leaves/appears to try and make a kill. And to be quite frank, I think it would add difficulty to rebelling, because there is hardly any as is. Reds can sit in armory and have a leisurely time fully stocking up on ammo and waiting for a chance to break loose. If blues were allowed to pressure them, they'd have to grab some ammo, escape again, and actually avoid guards.

If you are saying that the problem is reds outnumbering blues, then reentering armory is not the solution it will just lead to more camping. The only way to fix that is to get more blues and to get better blues. I've seen lots of different wardens take care of mass rebellions with only 1 or 2 guards, it's difficult sure, but definitely not impossible and can be done with experience and team work. Reentering armory negates all the work needed by a blue to use teamwork, conserve ammo, and hunt down rebellers when they could just camp armory until the rebeller shows up. Rebels camping in armory is not the same as blues camping armory because a red eventually has to leave to get some kills while a blue can just wait for a rebeller to show up. The difficulty of rebelling depends on the skill of the guards. Guards who know how to direct prisoners where they want will make rebelling tough by putting reds in inconvenient locations while a guard who sees a rebeller could just hop right back into armory, wait under the ceiling for a rebeller to pop in and shoot his guts out without actually learning how to be a good warden.

Your argument here is, "don't change the game from how I like it, or I'm going to stop playing." If it was such a short change that you weren't logged in for most of, I don't see how you had the time to observe the balance aspects of this change. Instead, you decided to whine because it makes your job on red easier. None of your post actually applied to the re-entering rule, it only talks about how "good blues could compromise with limited ammo."

Nope, thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I've seen jailbreak to be balanced for both red and blue and this rule would add a major shift in difficulty to rebelling. The current balance of difficulty for reds and blues are fine, why mess with it? Reentering armory takes away the skill of actually being a good guard. I know that many players are used to our server having the no reentering armory rule and I quickly made this post so we could prevent a mass confusion of what blues can and can't do before it begins. I have observed this rule on other jailbreak servers and it is not a very successful rule.

Rebelling shouldn't be as easy as it is.
IT SHOULDN'T BE EASY TO PUNCH THE GUARD OF A PRISON TO DEATH

Rebelling is not easy unless there is a million reds (but that can't be solved by allowing blues to reenter) in which case getting more players on blue is what we should be focusing on.
Like Asu said, this could be the weapons fault, not the jailbreak mechanics.

  • To dispose of reds who ran into armory instead of having to take this whole "now you have to get out." deal
  • It makes it more challenging for a prisoner to plan rebellions instead of just running for armoury and camping there until reds are near the door
  • Reduces the need for admins needed to find out "who re-entered"
  • BLU's aren't punished for honest mistakes, like being backed up into armory and slain for it.
  • With full health packs in armory, RED's are able to get health much faster than the BLU's trying to kill the rebellers, making it completely unfair as BLU's have to travel to medic back and forth while RED's pick up the health packs and insta-heal. (Prominent in ml_castle)

I'd rather have it where blues wait for reds to exit to have an actual fight than to have a never ending battle taking place in armory.
Plan will always fail when a a red enters the armory just to see a blue has been camping there with a shotgun to their face.
It is much easier for an admin to slay someone for reentering than to slay a whole group of reds and blues for camping. Finding out is not that difficult at all.
You are a prison guard. You need to be aware of important things. Can't be lenient about that, rules exist for a reason.
Thats why blues should wait a good distance from armory before trying to kill rebellers, good wardens know how to deal with that problem.

Steam chats.

EDIT: Changed ratio to 0.66 from 0.5. That should allow 1 more blue.

Not going to yell at you yet because I haven't seen it in action, but I already sense that this is going to be a bad decision.
 

Ibram

Recognized Member
I'd rather have it where blues wait for reds to exit to have an actual fight than to have a never ending battle taking place in armory.
Plan will always fail when a a red enters the armory just to see a blue has been camping there with a shotgun to their face.
It is much easier for an admin to slay someone for reentering than to slay a whole group of reds and blues for camping. Finding out is not that difficult at all.
The health packs run out pretty quickly if a fight ensues within the armory, so camping won't be a problem as one party will be surely dead.
 

Astra

Recognized Member
If you are saying that the problem is reds outnumbering blues, then reentering armory is not the solution it will just lead to more camping. The only way to fix that is to get more blues and to get better blues. I've seen lots of different wardens take care of mass rebellions with only 1 or 2 guards, it's difficult sure, but definitely not impossible and can be done with experience and team work. Reentering armory negates all the work needed by a blue to use teamwork, conserve ammo, and hunt down rebellers when they could just camp armory until the rebeller shows up. Rebels camping in armory is not the same as blues camping armory because a red eventually has to leave to get some kills while a blue can just wait for a rebeller to show up. The difficulty of rebelling depends on the skill of the guards. Guards who know how to direct prisoners where they want will make rebelling tough by putting reds in inconvenient locations while a guard who sees a rebeller could just hop right back into armory, wait under the ceiling for a rebeller to pop in and shoot his guts out without actually learning how to be a good warden.



Nope, thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I've seen jailbreak to be balanced for both red and blue and this rule would add a major shift in difficulty to rebelling. The current balance of difficulty for reds and blues are fine, why mess with it? Reentering armory takes away the skill of actually being a good guard. I know that many players are used to our server having the no reentering armory rule and I quickly made this post so we could prevent a mass confusion of what blues can and can't do before it begins. I have observed this rule on other jailbreak servers and it is not a very successful rule.



Rebelling is not easy unless there is a million reds (but that can't be solved by allowing blues to reenter) in which case getting more players on blue is what we should be focusing on.
Like Asu said, this could be the weapons fault, not the jailbreak mechanics.



I'd rather have it where blues wait for reds to exit to have an actual fight than to have a never ending battle taking place in armory.
Plan will always fail when a a red enters the armory just to see a blue has been camping there with a shotgun to their face.
It is much easier for an admin to slay someone for reentering than to slay a whole group of reds and blues for camping. Finding out is not that difficult at all.
You are a prison guard. You need to be aware of important things. Can't be lenient about that, rules exist for a reason.
Thats why blues should wait a good distance from armory before trying to kill rebellers, good wardens know how to deal with that problem.



Not going to yell at you yet because I haven't seen it in action, but I already sense that this is going to be a bad decision.
I don't know what method you use to find out who reentered. So far the easiest way is to either play spy every single round or sit in spectator. Sure you can use logic to rule put people who wouldn't do it until you are left with 1 name, but more often than not there is more than 1 blue that may or may not know the rules. I also don't rely heavily on what other people tell me; they could lie or say the wrong name. The red letters that usually show up when you hold your crosshair over them don't show up for me anymore and they were hard to see regardless.
 

1769

Recognized Member
The health packs run out pretty quickly if a fight ensues within the armory, so camping won't be a problem as one party will be surely dead.

So it's not an actual fight, it's just a race to see who can get the last health pack so the other guy can die.
 
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