New [Suggestion] Make Crusader's Crossbow viable again

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#1
Medic is such a weak class without his old values on the Crusader's Crossbow.

  1. Make the explosive range larger.
  2. Increase damage. Direct hit should do a max of 300 per shot, splash damage should do about 100-200 varying on accuracy.
  3. For reload speed, either:
    1. Make it two shots that reload slowly.
    2. Make it a single shot that reloads quickly.

Back in 2015-2016 this weapon used to make the class actually fun and made people want to play Medic. Now he's bloody useless and everybody plays Spy or Demo.

edit: hi, it's Scarfman, your old Admin+ back from the grave.
 

Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#2
It is perfectly fine. Learn how to aim it better.

The issue is not the damage.
The issue is not about how fun it is.
The issue is not how "everyone plays Spy or Demo," medic is the most powerful class in the game.

The issue is the mobility medic gains from 2 clip size instead of one.
The issue is the most powerful class gaining strong knockback, you're even suggesting a bigger explosive (assumingly) blast radius.

The weapon was changed for a reason, and the old version was changed for a reason, perhaps we wouldn't want to go back to that?

To put it simply, no.
 
#3
The Crusader's Crossbow doesn't need any buffs. It's still an incredibly strong weapon.

The core problem with Medic is that there's no loadout diversity. He has one that's borderline overpowered (Crusader's Crossbow, Medigun / Kritzkrieg, Übersaw), while everything else is worthless. Of course he'll seem a lot weaker or stronger, to a returning player, if his only toolkit has been changed.

Anyways, welcome back. If you're curious about any stats or bosses, I can help catch you up.
 
#5
Medic does half damage to himself from one shot. Paired with how Hale does well over half damage, I think the recoil is plenty fair.
It is perfectly fine. Learn how to aim it better.

The issue is not the damage.
The issue is not about how fun it is.
The issue is not how "everyone plays Spy or Demo," medic is the most powerful class in the game.

The issue is the mobility medic gains from 2 clip size instead of one.
The issue is the most powerful class gaining strong knockback, you're even suggesting a bigger explosive (assumingly) blast radius.

The weapon was changed for a reason, and the old version was changed for a reason, perhaps we wouldn't want to go back to that?

To put it simply, no.
Did further testing and damage is fine. I just think in a crowd full of people where Hale is constantly jumping, being juggled around, etc. that the blast range with this weapon should be a little bit more than what it is. Even if it's slightly more. That's honestly the only thing out of everything I said I'd truly like to see buffed. Everything is secondary. Justification shouldn't be "get good" but rather how can you make this balanced so he isn't a slow sniping class and can actually support. Maybe to balance it out lower damage slightly (maybe to 200-225 max), increase blast range slightly, and slightly lower reload speed (so players cannot spam juggle)? Also, if Ubercharge makes him "the most powerful class in the game" then maybe you should lower the Ubercharge charge rate. Suggestion.
 
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Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#6
Once again, the issue is not damage.
The blast range what you are suggest is.
The crossbow is an explosion, the crossbow is a projectile, and it has crits.
What does this mean? Knockback.
Giving medic any form of self peel that does not sacrifice health is extremely risky for balancing.
As for suggesting lowering ubercharge charge rate and instead increasing blast radius, congratulations, you've made a low quality mix between medic and soldier.
 
#7
Once again, the issue is not damage.
The blast range what you are suggest is.
The crossbow is an explosion, the crossbow is a projectile, and it has crits.
What does this mean? Knockback.
Giving medic any form of self peel that does not sacrifice health is extremely risky for balancing.
As for suggesting lowering ubercharge charge rate and instead increasing blast radius, congratulations, you've made a low quality mix between medic and soldier.
I'm not suggesting the damage is a problem, but if you think supplying Medic with a small knockback is unfair then lower the damage per shot. The goal is to give Medic versatility so he's not caught dead standing while healing others. It makes the class kind of impractical to play having no escape methods in tight spaces. His explosive shot, like stated before, should do half damage to Medic like it was before so it's not easily spammable. It would be not all similar to Soldier. Soldier has a lot of offensive options while Medic has frugle options offensively and escapingly. It's not right to automatically make the point that knockback = imbalance automatically, especially when you can balance it out in a bunch of different ways, i.e. self-damage, slower Ubercharge (make Medic want to go in more with Ubersaw instead of spam heal). Make Medic more risky to play and more optimal against fighting Hale rather than standing around.

If you want to talk about knockback, let's talk about the ridiculous knockback on stickybombs (which have "little to no risk"). Or how about sentry guns? Your point's only goal is to keep knockback off Medic because he's "the most powerful class," when TBH that's sheer opinion because you think Ubercharge is the holy grail of the game.

edit: My suggestion is to aim to make him high-risk-high-reward. Right now he's too safe with no escape options. Let's make him unsafe to escape with that escape option in mind.
 
#8
The Crusader's Crossbow doesn't need any buffs. It's still an incredibly strong weapon.

The core problem with Medic is that there's no loadout diversity. He has one that's borderline overpowered (Crusader's Crossbow, Medigun / Kritzkrieg, Übersaw), while everything else is worthless. Of course he'll seem a lot weaker or stronger, to a returning player, if his only toolkit has been changed.

Anyways, welcome back. If you're curious about any stats or bosses, I can help catch you up.
It doesn't need any buffs, it just needs adjustments. Totally agree with you though.

And thank you for the welcome back!
 

Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#9
My point still stands... lowering damage balances nothing. Medic crossbow used to do ~120 damage when it had splash rockets - and medic was unbelievably broken at the time and could solo bosses just as easily as a scout or soldier could. Taking half his health as splash or not, it's the potential to self peel without taking any damage through the increased explosive radius. Take into account every other occasion where medic's crossbow has been able to deal splash damage, and wonder why that exact mechanic was removed yet everything else about medic was kept the same. Running in with ubersaw is a terrible idea, you're asking players to suicide as medic. Lowering ubercharge rate would not make medics want to go in more with ubersaw, because his uber is only part of the reason why he is so strong. You know what is the core mechanic of medic?
Healing
Medic is not a risky class, it is a support class and not every form of every class will be viable.

If you want to compare knockback to stickies, let me ask you:
1. How much damage does a single sticky do
2. How much longer does it take for a sticky to be put on the ground, arm, and explode in the predicted area to specific knock back the boss compared to a faster moving projectile like the crossbow
3. Can demo heal players? Can demo make other players invulnerable?
4. Did you know critical hits have more knockback than non critical hits? What does crossbow fire? A crit rocket that travels at a high velocity in a direct arc. What does a sticky bomb launcher fire? Non-crit medium velocity projectiles that mostly only knockback once on the ground, factoring travel time, prediction shots, and the boss's movement.

If you want to compare knockback to sentries: that is a completely unrelated topic to medic, engineers have sentry guns in the base game, they have knockback in the base game, that is something we are not changing. Bosses already have large amounts of knockback resistance, it is just the sheer amount of damage and knockback amplification from taking damage from multiple sources. Comparatively, bosses can hold crouch against a lone sentry gun or approach it from the air to destroy it. And most importantly -
Sentries can not run away from a rage stun, sentries have no mobility, sentries have no escape., sentries can't heal players, sentries can't make them invulnerable to damage.
Medic does.

I do not believe ubercharge is the "holy grail" of the game, I believe it is an extremely strong mechanic, but what matters more is his healing and ability to keep allies in the fight longer and to continue the swarm of red players that most of the time, overwhelms the boss instead of trickling players in due to them running back for the few and rare health packs across most maps.

Medic is already a high risk high reward class.
Risk? Medics / engineer / spies are the most targeted classes. Medic has no safe and unpunishable escape tool - this makes the class harder to play because you have to know when you can crossbow jump, and when you can't to stay above the 283 health threshhold safely.
Reward? Extending the life duration of several players by minutes in a round that lasts <13 minutes, exponentially increasing potential damage output and amplifying a multitude of classes' damage with crits on ubercharge.

Medic is not a safe class, if you think he is, then you haven't played medic against a proper boss.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with "no escape options"
He has one. The crossbow, and it deals 1/3 - 1/4 of his health every time, not factoring in fall damage.
And if you think that is too safe, did you know medic only has 300 health, and a single crossbow used to rocket jump will put him beneath the threshold to die in one hit from most bosses?

As much as I would like to continue discussing this, as I am heavily invested into playing medic as well, I don't want to argue pointlessly on something that has almost no chance to be changed. Ideas have been thought of to increase medic loadout diversity, but as it stands, medic is just too much of a baseline and vanilla class to change without breaking parts of the game.
 

Lokiano

Active Member
#10
Medic is a support class, not a class meant to be doing damage. It should be the teams job to peel for the medic, not themselves. The medic is fine as he is.

also eggs says ur bad
 

Aggressive Burger

my burgers are aggressive
#12
I remember when Yuki first removed the medic rocket all together

At first he said it was fine that it didnt do any explosive damage and upped the damage. I argued with him that it should at least do some explosive damage so medics have slightly more mobility. so a few days went by and boom, explosive crossbow bolts.

I think its fine where it is. IMO Medic is in a position where any slight buff could push him to op or any slight nerf would put him at underpowered.
 
#13
Sometimes I wonder if people who make weapon suggestions like this ever actually play as the boss, or if they're just complaining because they want it being easier for the red team to win.

Not every class needs to be dishing out massive amounts of damage, especially not one built around healing and keeping your teammates alive. you have literally 8 other options to choose from if you want to be a damage based class. Just play soldier.
 
#14
My point still stands... lowering damage balances nothing. Medic crossbow used to do ~120 damage when it had splash rockets - and medic was unbelievably broken at the time and could solo bosses just as easily as a scout or soldier could. Taking half his health as splash or not, it's the potential to self peel without taking any damage through the increased explosive radius. Take into account every other occasion where medic's crossbow has been able to deal splash damage, and wonder why that exact mechanic was removed yet everything else about medic was kept the same. Running in with ubersaw is a terrible idea, you're asking players to suicide as medic. Lowering ubercharge rate would not make medics want to go in more with ubersaw, because his uber is only part of the reason why he is so strong. You know what is the core mechanic of medic?
Healing
Medic is not a risky class, it is a support class and not every form of every class will be viable.

If you want to compare knockback to stickies, let me ask you:
1. How much damage does a single sticky do
2. How much longer does it take for a sticky to be put on the ground, arm, and explode in the predicted area to specific knock back the boss compared to a faster moving projectile like the crossbow
3. Can demo heal players? Can demo make other players invulnerable?
4. Did you know critical hits have more knockback than non critical hits? What does crossbow fire? A crit rocket that travels at a high velocity in a direct arc. What does a sticky bomb launcher fire? Non-crit medium velocity projectiles that mostly only knockback once on the ground, factoring travel time, prediction shots, and the boss's movement.

If you want to compare knockback to sentries: that is a completely unrelated topic to medic, engineers have sentry guns in the base game, they have knockback in the base game, that is something we are not changing. Bosses already have large amounts of knockback resistance, it is just the sheer amount of damage and knockback amplification from taking damage from multiple sources. Comparatively, bosses can hold crouch against a lone sentry gun or approach it from the air to destroy it. And most importantly -
Sentries can not run away from a rage stun, sentries have no mobility, sentries have no escape., sentries can't heal players, sentries can't make them invulnerable to damage.
Medic does.

I do not believe ubercharge is the "holy grail" of the game, I believe it is an extremely strong mechanic, but what matters more is his healing and ability to keep allies in the fight longer and to continue the swarm of red players that most of the time, overwhelms the boss instead of trickling players in due to them running back for the few and rare health packs across most maps.

Medic is already a high risk high reward class.
Risk? Medics / engineer / spies are the most targeted classes. Medic has no safe and unpunishable escape tool - this makes the class harder to play because you have to know when you can crossbow jump, and when you can't to stay above the 283 health threshhold safely.
Reward? Extending the life duration of several players by minutes in a round that lasts <13 minutes, exponentially increasing potential damage output and amplifying a multitude of classes' damage with crits on ubercharge.

Medic is not a safe class, if you think he is, then you haven't played medic against a proper boss.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with "no escape options"
He has one. The crossbow, and it deals 1/3 - 1/4 of his health every time, not factoring in fall damage.
And if you think that is too safe, did you know medic only has 300 health, and a single crossbow used to rocket jump will put him beneath the threshold to die in one hit from most bosses?

As much as I would like to continue discussing this, as I am heavily invested into playing medic as well, I don't want to argue pointlessly on something that has almost no chance to be changed. Ideas have been thought of to increase medic loadout diversity, but as it stands, medic is just too much of a baseline and vanilla class to change without breaking parts of the game.
It's a difference of opinion, I guess. I firmly believe every character should be able to do somewhat recognizable damage to the boss (not including healing-assisted damage) that doesn't require a snipe shot but that's okay. It's okay to disagree and I respect your opinion well enough to leave this conversation where it is.
 
#15
Medic is a support class, not a class meant to be doing damage. It should be the teams job to peel for the medic, not themselves. The medic is fine as he is.

also eggs says ur bad
That's fine to have that opinion, but I feel like he should be able to peel for himself when he needs to.
 
#17
Sometimes I wonder if people who make weapon suggestions like this ever actually play as the boss, or if they're just complaining because they want it being easier for the red team to win.

Not every class needs to be dishing out massive amounts of damage, especially not one built around healing and keeping your teammates alive. you have literally 8 other options to choose from if you want to be a damage based class. Just play soldier.
I've been playing this game since 2015, so much so that I used to admin the FF2 server daily. I'm from a different time period with a different opinion, and that's okay. No need to be assumptive of my skill or playtime on the game.
 

Gearhop

Well-Known Member
TF2 Admin
#18
I've been playing this game since 2015, so much so that I used to admin the FF2 server daily. I'm from a different time period with a different opinion, and that's okay. No need to be assumptive of my skill or playtime on the game.
That's fine to have that opinion, but I feel like he should be able to peel for himself when he needs to.
It's a difference of opinion, I guess. I firmly believe every character should be able to do somewhat recognizable damage to the boss (not including healing-assisted damage) that doesn't require a snipe shot but that's okay. It's okay to disagree and I respect your opinion well enough to leave this conversation where it is.
Holy balls dude slow down a sec, you can have multiple quotes in one post like this, so you wont end up multi-posting (which is against the rules)
 
#20
I remember this dude. Yes, meaningless comment but had to be done. Also I remember you were actually good player why would you ever complain about something? You can live with it im sure.
 
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