New ThirdPerson

#1
Yea I understand that thirdperson coming back has been argues multiple times and there will be no changes, but when I play ff2, I just see it as a preference and nothing else. From what I heard is that it was removed because it provided an unfair advantage due to a higher FOV. This has such a minimal impact because I mean what does the ability to peek corners provide for players? I know they are still advantages, but do those advantages really change the core gameplay of FF2? There are many other FF2 servers that have TP enabled but before you say "Just go play in that server", I enjoy playing this server the most and I hope that Third Person could return. I just want a discussion about this and how we can talk it out.
 

Ivy

Well-Known Member
TF2 Admin
#4
The more I see people talk about this the more my view on it shifts. As many discussions as there have been on this topic in particular, (some shut down, some not,) I wouldn't see a problem with having at least one more to change some opinions.

Before I give my two cents on this, I should say that I don't play FF2 as a main server nor as much some of the others here do, but I feel like I've played enough and heard enough from other people to give an opinion. The last few discussions about this on the forums have been either shut down or poorly made, and the last time there was a proper discussion the person who made it was a cheater who preferred to talk in rainbows. In my honest opinion, this is worth having a discussion about again.

From what I heard is that it was removed because it provided an unfair advantage due to a higher FOV.
The problem with saying thirdperson gives an unfair advantage & unfair POV is that you can do the exact same thing with a partner taunt, or any other taunt for that matter. Hell, if you reach enough, you could use the taunt store to do the same thing, albeit much slower. If you're going to restrict an ability that essentially only allows people with bought taunts to use it, what's the point?


This has such a minimal impact because I mean what does the ability to peek corners provide for players?
The way I see this, the advantage thirdperson gives as an ability is way too small to have an impact. The most damage I can see it doing is if a hale uses it while behind a corner, and even then, the advantage this gives is next to none.

If it becomes more of an issue with hales in particular, than a good solution could be restricting the ability to the reds exclusively. This way, most of the people who use it as a preference can do so, and hales can't abuse it, (even though the advantage of "abusing it" as hale would be and has been minuscule.)

There are many other FF2 servers that have TP enabled
This is a godawful point to make, and you should never make it again, ever.

I agree that third person should be enabled and toggle-able generally. If not, then exclusively to the reds, at the very least. Restricting this completely stops players who prefer to play the game a certain way from playing it the way they want to, and leaving it enabled doesn't provide any additional game-changing advantages. FF2 is not a competitive game, it's a relaxed community game. It would be one thing if players complained about third person being enabled, but they didn't, and I'm guessing that they won't if it's enabled again. Please take this into consideration.


As an ending note, please don't lock this thread because it's the same discussion. The last time we discussed this in detail was August of 2018. It's worth it to talk about this at least one more time, and shutting it down completely will send a message and stop people from getting their other ideas or suggestions out at all.

A large portion of this was @Flametosser's opinion put into my own words. Don't hurt me flame.
 
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#7
I was always under the assumption that 3rd person was removed because it made it too easy for the boss to avoid backstabs. You've got that biiiig open window to see when a spy is right behind you after all.

Either way, while I don't particularly like the idea of 3rd person for the boss, i see no reason why reds can't have it at least.
 

Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#8
That's been the most... promising return of third person considered so far. Exclusivity to reds... still likely not to return at all. Most of what's said here has been brought up in multiple other threads.
 

Aggressive Burger

my burgers are aggressive
#9
wasnt the reason it was removed was because third person basically negated the spy class when decent/above average players used tp?

exclusively red would be fine as it doenst give a huge advantage because red already has cancelable taunts (conga, mannrobics, high five, didgerdrongo, panzer pants, the class specific dances, etc)
 
#10
I agree with thirdperson being a red-exclusive thing.
 

Nazuki

Administrator
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#11
There is a massive advantage to third person; that's nothing new. Though re-evaluating this for red side only may be interesting, though I'd imagine it's just going to be used for sitting around a corner, waiting for the boss to walk by and getting a stab at 80 degrees off back center.
 
#12
There is a massive advantage to third person; that's nothing new. Though re-evaluating this for red side only may be interesting, though I'd imagine it's just going to be used for sitting around a corner, waiting for the boss to walk by and getting a stab at 80 degrees off back center.
The fact that players abuse corners, especially spies, is nothing new. As @Ivy explained in their post, the impact of !thirdperson in these scenarios is minimal. Instead, I see something like latency playing a much bigger role, since TF2's client interpolation settings are easily manipulated.

The ability to see a restricted area around your back is also only a small advantage. The window to react to someone who's already in position behind or above you, like a Spy, or Soldier, isn't as big as some would expect. If you get distracted, you're just as vulnerable as anyone else.
 

Nazuki

Administrator
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#13
the impact of !thirdperson in these scenarios is minimal
Assuming you are referring to this:
I can see it doing is if a hale uses it while behind a corner, and even then, the advantage this gives is next to none.
Third person peeking is an absolute massive advantage. Information that you would otherwise not know (without a risk) is not "next to none". Imagine if you could corner peek middle to figure out AWP line of sights without ever being seen and at no risk of being hit.

The increased vertical and horizontal views almost completely counters utilizing out of FOV angles to get close enough for melee attacks. We've been to the "fly around in a circle to have a chance at closing the distance before they react and only mouse wheel pro bhopers could win meta" because the increased vertical FOV allows you to be aware both far above you and around you. The only effective way to close the distance without being countered was to build enough speed that they mis-time/don't react in time/super long range melees at high movement speeds. Many tweaks have been made to make that less viable and making more "traditional TF2" melee more viable which would explain the more consistent round times and results across the boss players.

You would've made a better point stating that FF2 isn't a competitive game and should have more relaxed/casual settings rather than downplaying the peeking advantage of third person.

A large portion of this was @Flametosser's opinion put into my own words. Don't hurt me flame.
Flametosser is capable of speaking for himself, in fact I heard he talks a lot.
 

Ivy

Well-Known Member
TF2 Admin
#14
You would've made a better point stating that FF2 isn't a competitive game and should have more relaxed/casual settings rather than downplaying the peeking advantage of third person.
Hey! I did make that point:

I agree that third person should be enabled and toggle-able generally. If not, then exclusively to the reds, at the very least. Restricting this completely stops players who prefer to play the game a certain way from playing it the way they want to, and leaving it enabled doesn't provide any additional game-changing advantages. FF2 is not a competitive game, it's a relaxed community game. It would be one thing if players complained about third person being enabled, but they didn't, and I'm guessing that they won't if it's enabled again.
...and with it, I also made the point that it doesn't provide any additional gamechanging advantages. Which it doesn't. On the red team, at least.

Imagine if you could corner peek middle to figure out AWP line of sights without ever being seen and at no risk of being hit.
Well, you already can. One of the points I made was regarding partner and normal taunts. If you were to stand behind a corner at mid and peek the angle using, say, The High Five, it would have the same affect as using third person to do the same thing. (in fact, people already do it now.) While there's obviously a difference between taunts and using this as a viewpoint freely, you can't deny that it's advantages are almost exactly the same, in this context. You can just as easily click out of a taunt immediately when you see hale and run, as you can run away in third person.

We're talking about a single red with a slight advantage versus a much beefier hale. The biggest advantage this is going to get you on the red team is corner peeking, and, like I mentioned, taunts give you the same exact ability.

Third person peeking is an absolute massive advantage. Information that you would otherwise not know (without a risk) is not "next to none".
One of the reasons I said the advantage was minimal is because at a point, it gets to be. Corner peeking can already be done with taunts, and the advantage it gives you, as corner peeking, against a giant, colourful, loudmothed hale, who is very much not invisible, is incredibly minimal. See a hale coming behind you while in TP? What are you going do, move? You'd have already known they were behind you at that point in first person! Seeing the hale behind you isn't going to change how fast you can get away from them.

Don't even get me started on how hale can't even get the chance to use an ability like third person to corner peek when they are constantly being hunt down and followed by a lunatic team of reds who want nothing but to kill them. Hale sees a spy behind him? Restrict TP to the lunatics. Simple as that.

the impact of !thirdperson in these scenarios is minimal
Assuming you are referring to this:
I can see it doing is if a hale uses it while behind a corner, and even then, the advantage this gives is next to none.
He was probably referring to what I said about reds, spies corner peeking with taunts, and everything else related. Obviously hale has more of an advantage with third person, and I should have capitalized on that in my first post, however, as reds, (and even as hale at certain points) the advantage is incredibly minuscule because of the things mentioned above. Reconsider.
 
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Zero1763

Well-Known Member
#15
Third person peeking is an absolute massive advantage. Information that you would otherwise not know (without a risk) is not "next to none". Imagine if you could corner peek middle to figure out AWP line of sights without ever being seen and at no risk of being hit.
Ngl, whether you like it or not, he is right. The ability to see more definitely changes how you would normally play opposed to if you weren't. The difference between thirdperson being something you can toggle and using taunts to go into thirdperson isn't something that should be downplayed because one allows you to constantly have the advantage of sight, while the other although giving you the advantage of sight keeps you either locked in place or slows you down.

If everything in the end boils down to what is minimal and what is not minimal, then you'd have to consider the fact that in the right hands obviously thirdperson would either be used by people who don't think of it as an advantage because they don't see it as one and just play in thirdperson whereas other people would use it to their fullest extent as an advantage over other people who aren't using it to its fullest extent.

tl;dr: There is the inherent benefit of sight that can be used by people seeking the ability to see more, have fun arguing the stance of why people who see more than others isn't an advantage because it doesn't seem like a smart thing to argue fundamentally.
 

Fluquor

Queen of Ice
Staff member
TF2 Admin
#16
I guess back to arguing over the same points, if I said anything to contribute to this - I'd just be repeating what yuki said, but I'll put forth a few ideas.

Simply in response to the "taunts" vs "third person" corner peeking, what wicked said is absolutely correct, being immobile and even taking that extra few, maybe even just half a second to cancel the taunt is very significant. Additionally, while this is niche, some angles glitching and looking through walls can only be achieved by certain angles... predominantly by crouching. There's also a slight bit of disorientation when you cancel a taunt and re-enter first person, and not to mention, while this is also niche, third person produces no sound, while taunting has the player pipe out occasional voice lines.

In a specific scenario where I "abused" or, used third person to its full extent, the main culprit is spy in this case, standing in third person around a corner while being able to shift the camera around so I could find when the boss was coming around, and react as soon as the boss came around, if I was taunting, there's more time to cancel the animation of taunting or possibly a sitting animation, and also being disorientated as I am likely to be facing the wrong direction because taunting requires an open space for partner (the fastest canceling ones), or to spend a whole 2-3 seconds cancelling a sitting taunt, and must redirect myself instead of staying in third person and maintaining the angle I needed for the stab.

To simply put, everything yuki & wicked said, but with a few more sprinkles on top.
 

Aggressive Burger

my burgers are aggressive
#18
Nazuki said:
SG isnt pay to win...[i guess taunts are the closest thing to ptw]
Aggressive Burger said:
I mean not really, taunts are in the store for like 7ish credits
I guess what im trying to get at is that, yeah third person gives advantage to both teams, but even when removed, both sides can use the partner taunts so in my opinion, having it restricted or removed makes little difference. I mean i guess in third person you can move "silently" and not be shouting "ITS THE FORBIDDEN DANCE AHHAHA!!" "YEAHHH CONGA"
 
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#20
The increased vertical and horizontal views almost completely counters utilizing out of FOV angles to get close enough for melee attacks. We've been to the "fly around in a circle to have a chance at closing the distance before they react and only mouse wheel pro bhopers could win meta" because the increased vertical FOV allows you to be aware both far above you and around you. The only effective way to close the distance without being countered was to build enough speed that they mis-time/don't react in time/super long range melees at high movement speeds. Many tweaks have been made to make that less viable and making more "traditional TF2" melee more viable which would explain the more consistent round times and results across the boss players.
That meta wasn't developed because of !thirdperson, but because bosses needed to avoid / quickly eliminate burst damage classes like Soldier and Spy. At the time, both of them were very mobile (with BHOP having been easier to abuse) and they could effortlessly deal 15k+ damage per round.

The more consistent round times is likely due to the removal of many bad maps that were prone to delaying, griefing and exploiting.

In a specific scenario where I "abused" or, used third person to its full extent, the main culprit is spy in this case, standing in third person around a corner while being able to shift the camera around so I could find when the boss was coming around, and react as soon as the boss came around, if I was taunting, there's more time to cancel the animation of taunting or possibly a sitting animation, and also being disorientated as I am likely to be facing the wrong direction because taunting requires an open space for partner (the fastest canceling ones), or to spend a whole 2-3 seconds cancelling a sitting taunt, and must redirect myself instead of staying in third person and maintaining the angle I needed for the stab.
It isn't difficult to find the open space needed for a partner taunt. Then, cancelling it will snap your character in the direction you were aiming. It isn't disorienting. Either way, once the boss is close enough and you've committed, latency plays a large role in deciding the outcome.

Side note, it's possible to muffle taunts like the High Five by interrupting them with voice commands. Spy can use his subtle "hon hon hon" instead.
 
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